Curse

RedDog91 · Dec 23, 2009, 08:54 PM // 20:54

If the 6 gods (the 5 true god + abaddon) created the world of Tyria, then how was there a god of death (Dhuum) b4 there were things that could die?
Did Grenth use to be god of something else and Dhuum helped create the world also? Or is Dhuum the original and Grenth just crawled out a hole somewhere and take over as god of death?

Same with Menzie. Did he help create he world and then Balthazar appeared out of nowhere to become the god of war?

Hells Fury · Dec 23, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Um... it's a game...

That part of lore is blank and probably will stay that way.

-On the other side...

Before those gods there were dragons (Tyria, here be dragons lol)
Before dragons / gods there was mist only.
And before mist ... developers / programmers / other

Zodiac Meteor · Dec 23, 2009, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

Um... it's a game...
That part of lore is blank and probably will stay that way.
-On the other side...
Before those gods there were dragons (Tyria, here be dragons lol)
Before dragons / gods there was mist only.
And before mist ... developers / programmers / other

Um... That was pointless...
There is 3 gods of the dead. Menzies, Grenth and Dhuum. Abbadon is the god of chaos and Balthazar is the one who imprisoned him.

Dhuum is the original god of the underworld until Grenth sealed him away. Also, Menzies controlled the Fissure of Woe until one again Balthazar sealed him and took control. Everything was fine until the 5 gods left Tyria and in return shared their abilities to the creatures hoping we can take care of ourselves. For 1200 years the seals held strong until literally all hell broke lose.

So to put it simple, Grenth is a total a-hole that wanted to control the afterlife all to himself. Balthazar decided to seal Abbadon and Menzies simply because he didn't want to leave Tyria to share the boon and the only guidance the gods left for us is the spirit's that guards the shines.

According to what I read on wiki, my conclusion is that the gods didn't trust one another so the 5 original gods thought, screw it, they got rid of the gods they didn't like and left Tyria because they don't want to care for it.

I have nothing to do while waiting for the bus to take me to school...

RedDog91 · Dec 23, 2009, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

Before those gods there were dragons (Tyria, here be dragons lol)
Before dragons / gods there was mist only.

The dragons were one of the first (or realitively so) creations of the gods.
they weren't there first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

So to put it simple, Grenth is a total a-hole that wanted to control the afterlife all to himself. Balthazar decided to seal Abbadon and Menzies simply because he didn't want to leave Tyria to share the boon and the only guidance the gods left for us is the spirit's that guards the shines.

According to what I read on wiki, my conclusion is that the gods didn't trust one another so the 5 original gods thought, screw it, they got rid of the gods they didn't like and left Tyria because they don't want to care for it.

But if they are the 5 original, then how was Menzies the ruler of FoW b4 Balthazar and Dhuum the god of death b4 Grenth?
And Balthazar didn't decide to seal Abaddon alone, the other 4 gods agrred on it. Balthazar simply made the chains.

Roy_ · Dec 23, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Throughout the first two games we are told that there are ONLY FIVE gods. Then Nightfall comes around and we learn that we were lied to, that there were six, and one was "evil" and was so then imprisoned. We also learn that a human can take a gods power, and become one them self.

I think that them being "original" is another lie.

Also, Menzies is supposed to be Balthazars "half brother" which I find to be interesting. Dhuum was the god of death before Grenth, but he didn't take the power like Korimir, he sealed Dhuum away... Menzies also never controlled FoW... where did you get that from..?

I'm a little hazy on lore though... Gmr or Kiong should be in shortly though, and if I've stated anything wrong then they will correct me.

EwolxNavi · Dec 23, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

So to put it simple, Grenth is a total a-hole that wanted to control the afterlife all to himself. Balthazar decided to seal Abbadon and Menzies simply because he didn't want to leave Tyria to share the boon and the only guidance the gods left for us is the spirit's that guards the shines.

That's... not quite accurate.

Dhuum's crime was that he was unjust. Grenth's big thing is justice (what with death being the final judgement and all that). Grenth usurped Dhuum to re-establish the proper balance of life and death.

Abaddon's problem was that he was too free-handed with the giving out of magic, which made him indirectly to blame for the magic wars. He was imprisoned in Torment because he fought the other five. A punishment that clearly did not fit his crime, but he wasn't put down for nothing.

Menzies' deal seems like some violent sibling rivalry between him and his half-brother Balthzar to me.

As to the actual topic of the thread, if you play through many of the later quests in Nightfall (particularly those in the Realm of Torment), it becomes quite clear that everything we thought we knew about the gods is highly questionable. Dhuum is not the only god that preceeded the current 6 (including Kormir), because there's references to another god that Abaddon replaced, just as Kormir has now supplanted him. The Apostate also claims that these gods are not "eternal". So it would really be no surprise at this point if we found out that the gods had nothing to do with the creation of the world at all (or at least, this current group anyway) and that this generational thing that we see with Abby and Kormy goes way back.

Benderama · Dec 23, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

there are plenty of gods in GW not all of them are worshipped by humans or called the "true" gods. (the great dwarf and destroyer both exist but aren't worshipped)

Mensies, dhuum and previously abaddon were gods but not one of the five greater gods or something, anywho dhuum used to be the god of death, grenth overthrew him e.t.c
before grenth it says dhuum was harsher , leading to a final death. so maybe dhuum is more of the god of non-existance? the wiki page for dhuum and menzies explains it better than me ^^

Hells Fury · Dec 23, 2009, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

The dragons were one of the first (or realitively so) creations of the gods.
they weren't there first.

But if they are the 5 original, then how was Menzies the ruler of FoW b4 Balthazar and Dhuum the god of death b4 Grenth?
And Balthazar didn't decide to seal Abaddon alone, the other 4 gods agrred on it. Balthazar simply made the chains.

Dragons haven't been created by gods. At least not elders , dunno about younger dragons.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Elder_dragons

Kinda doesn't make sense that gods created such powerful creatures that can't be controlled. Zaithan was responsible for battle isle destruction. And balthazar had to change the location. Means that he couldn't stop him. And compare for e.g Dhumm and Kralkatorrik. Dhumm gets steamed in 30-60 min. Doesn't impress much with skills. Kralkatorrik is huge as F*uck. Try charging on him with sword lol.

EDIT: Found it, they are the oldest :
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Dragons

"Older than the Six, from a time before man, Forgotten, and possibly even before giganticus lupicus ..."

You don't mess with draguns.

RedDog91 · Dec 23, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

History/Lore also says that after creating Tyria (the first world) they went off to create many more.
Could this be the basis behind World vs. World in GW2?
and if so, does this mean every world they created is exactly the same and has the EXACT same events happen...seems to me they woulda fixed the problem atleast by world 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

Found it, they are the oldest :
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Dragons

"Older than the Six, from a time before man, Forgotten, and possibly even before giganticus lupicus ..."

You don't mess with draguns.

I just read that when you posted it.
Now I have a paradox rambling in my head.
If the dragons are older than the gods, and the gods created the world, then how did the dragons walk the world b4 it was created?

I'm assuming that there are some gods way b4 anything ever happens. Part of this assumption comes from Menzies being Balthazar's half-brother. Meaning that there were atleast 3 gods before them (1 dad and 2 moms or vice versa). Maybe those were the ones that created the dragons and the world itself but they are so far beyond any writtings that not a single creature knows about them. Maybe the dragons killed them.
OR MAYBE THEY ARE THE UNIVERSE ITSELF
*head explodes*

Hells Fury · Dec 23, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

History/Lore also says that after creating Tyria (the first world) they went off to create many more.
Could this be the basis behind World vs. World in GW2?
and if so, does this mean every world they created is exactly the same and has the EXACT same events happen...seems to me they woulda fixed the problem atleast by world 3

And they did create. They created realms. UW is one of them. Realm of Torment is one of them. UW is actually part of Realm of Torment and both are located in Mists. One was was place for the dead, other was prison for Abbadon. So ye, creating realms is easy, takes about 1 year of programming and tuning it.

Now I have a paradox rambling in my head.
If the dragons are older than the gods, and the gods created the world, then how did the dragons walk the world b4 it was created?

I'm assuming that there are some gods way b4 anything ever happens. Part of this assumption comes from Menzies being Balthazar's half-brother. Meaning that there were atleast 3 gods before them (1 dad and 2 moms or vice versa). Maybe those were the ones that created the dragons and the world itself but they are so far beyond any writtings that not a single creature knows about them. Maybe the dragons killed them.
OR MAYBE THEY ARE THE UNIVERSE ITSELF
*head explodes*

Heh... like people haven't tried to find that answer for 2000+ years
And I'm not talking about game.
Were do we come from. Where does universe comes from. What was before big bang. Is there a God. What did God do before he created earth and what was before him and who created him.
If you, my friend , find answers to those...please... start another thread.

Chthon · Dec 23, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

The lore contained in the GW Manuscripts and such is what the people of Tyria believe; it is not necessarily "correct." For instance, the events of NF seriously revised the King Doric story as told in the manuscripts. Similarly, there turned out to be 6 gods when all the lore had been telling us there were only 5. Etc. Etc.

Similarly, the "5 Gods" (now 6 gods) are obviously not the creator gods. Some reasons for this conclusion:

As you imply, Grenth couldn't be a creator god unless he and Dhuum ruled over an empty UW prior to creation.
Kormir is also a replacement god, and, according the the apostate, Abbadon was a replacement god too.
Eve's dialogue at the end of NF implies at least one other god was "created" in ancient times (human ancient times, since Eve knows about it).
Balthazar has a brother, which implies he had parents (either human or divine) who created him, hence he is not a creator god.
The "5 gods" (now 6 gods) are pretty weak for gods. They can't contain or deal with Abbadon for themselves, can't contain or deal with Dhuum for themselves, can't keep control of UW or FoW without help, etc. It doesn't make sense that these 5 could create the world, but can't kill a few dryders in UW.

It seems to me that the most likely explanation is that the "5 gods" (now 6 gods) are "gods" in the sense that the mursaat were "gods," only a little better at it. They are powerful magic users, formerly human, possessed of a power older than themselves, and capable of imbuing others with some degree of magical power.

RedDog91 · Dec 23, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

good input Chthon, you made me think of another issue.
All 5 true gods (and Abaddon) are said to be siblings of each other with Balthazar being the oldest. And Cynn says Abaddon is a filler god like Kormir. So does this make all the gods filler gods?
Maybe all of them were human at one point and they were the first humans to discover magic, thus making them gods. And Menzies (who would in this case be every god's half-brother, not just Balthazar's) aqquired power the same way. Then they decide to share magic with the humans but give them limited magic to ensure that their own god state is safe.

Maybe ANET didn't think of a way to explain everything they left open for debate and will use ideas they steal from forums to make sense of it all.

I'M ON TO YOU ANET
Im n ur meetins, stealin ur plans

Patrisha MacFarlane · Dec 24, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

I think you are all putting WAY too much stock into whatever this or that NPC says or does not say. As an example: How would Cynn possibly know these infintisimal secrets of the universe that noone else seems to know? By the time of Nightfall she's nothing more than a 23 year old spoiled brat with a bad mouth and a bad attitude. Which....means she is no different than she was 3 years before. I also think it's foolish to place much stock in what Eve or any other NPC says, since anything said is going to be colored by a unique point of view coming from that NPC. That should be pretty obvious when you take into account most of Olias's statements.

People tend to create, twist, and modify "God stories" based upon their own ideas or needs. You only need to look at our own world to understand that. For example: the messages of Jesus and Mohammad have been so twisted and buried beneath BS for so many centuries that the real messages have barely survived at all.

ANet's lore is pretty specific on most of the points and questions raised so I fail to understand why there are somany misunderstandings and inaccuracies in this thread. I think what the reader needs to do is look at the ever-evolving lore in the context of ever-evolving and expanding knowledge in the same way historical subjects are viewed in our own world. What we once believe is true about our past can change with every new discovery of something buried in the dirt that we didn't know about before. Clearly, ANet is not just changing the lore because it's needed in order to expand the scope of the game. Rather, it's crystal clear to me that the writers are taking us on a journey of ever-changing discovery that is meant to be just as interesting and wonderous as the game itself.

I think it's very clear that the lore of Guild Wars is a metaphor for dozens of examples of lore that have come before it. Did the Greek Gods create this world? No, they were born of those who may have and rose up against them, bringing order and balance to that which previously existed in chaos and inbalance. It's clear to me that the Tyrian Gods may not have created Tyria as the previous limited lore suggested. But it makes alot of sense that a people would assume this and include it into their lore to explain that which the do not know or understand. That doesn't mean they were lied to. It's clear to me that the six Gods came to Tyria and found it in elemental chaos under the sway of these Primordial dragons. Think of the Earth when it was young, about 4.5 billion years ago, a molten planet covered in fire and chaos, then 500 millions years later a water world where nothing lived. Tyria could have been like this under the sway of these dragons. Yet these Gods come and subdued said dragons, and thus brought order to Tyria. They then molded it into the world we know, in effect "creating" the world we know. This is extremely similar to the story of the war between the Titans and the Younger Gods of the Greek mythos.

Assuming that the UW must have been empty before Tyria was created or couldn't have existed before then seems rather silly, unless you are claiming that life only exists on Tyria and nowhere else in the Universe. Suggesting that because a God has parents he of she couldn't be a "creator" god is pretty outrageous too. There are MANY mythos in which Gods play a central role that presents them as creators of many things despite having an origin themselves. David Eddings, who is condidered in fantasy circles to be the originator of the modern fantasy "God mythos", writes in The Belgariad about Gods who are the children of the Universe itself, but who are also creators in their own right. This idea has been borrowed in literally hundreds of fictional works in the years following its publication.

Lastly, while it may seem strange that the Gods ask for the help of "mortals" in their affairs, I think it is being forgotten that the players of this game are suppossed to be "grand heros" and "acendants". Basically, direct servants of the Gods. You could get all kinds of these out of that. Maybe the Gods are not allowed to intervene for whatever reason. Perhaps the Universe has forbidden it. Perhaps if Grenth faced Dhuum directly, the resulting power expended in such a struggle would tear apart the very fabric of the Mists or Space and Time. Perhaps Grenth's direction is focused on a larger threat you don't know about, and he knows the Dhuum having just awakened from a "nap" is still weak enough that you Heros can take care of him. There could be lots of Lore-based explanations for this and any other issue that the Gods seek our help.

Or.... we could go with the MOST logical and practical one: If they didn't ask for our help, there would be no game to play.

Tal L · Dec 24, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Ok guys Listen, there were five gods. As in the time of our heroes, becuase five were worshiped. Abbadon was considered as a god because he was fallen, he was forgotten. Menzi and Dhuum were boths good but they fell. There are five truly positions for gods. That why there are five gods over all. Each role it taken by a figure. Kormir took abadons place but she is not a true good because a non-human that is granted magic cannot be a good. She migh possess the power of a god yet she isnt a good yet, she is more like an envy.
The gods couldnt defeat the dragons because they left the humans the magic. You never know if the unseen gods of the mursaat were real, indeed they had to belive in something. I think the dragons are just the tools of the gods to check if the damage of handing the bloodstones could be overdone. Looking at glint she is old and easy to kill, the gods i think preserved the dragons for a back up plan to face the damage of the bloodstones, there is eqaul number of blood stones and dragons, each one feeding a power needed for the dragons. I wont be suprised if a connection would be made.
All of us here are making asmption and fallicies or what ever tok staff.

Patrisha MacFarlane · Dec 24, 2009, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tal L

Ok guys Listen, there were five gods. As in the time of our heroes, becuase five were worshiped. Abbadon was considered as a god because he was fallen, he was forgotten. Menzi and Dhuum were boths good but they fell. There are five truly positions for gods. That why there are five gods over all. Each role it taken by a figure. Kormir took abadons place but she is not a true good because a non-human that is granted magic cannot be a good. She migh possess the power of a god yet she isnt a good yet, she is more like an envy.
The gods couldnt defeat the dragons because they left the humans the magic. You never know if the unseen gods of the mursaat were real, indeed they had to belive in something. I think the dragons are just the tools of the gods to check if the damage of handing the bloodstones could be overdone. Looking at glint she is old and easy to kill, the gods i think preserved the dragons for a back up plan to face the damage of the bloodstones, there is eqaul number of blood stones and dragons, each one feeding a power needed for the dragons. I wont be suprised if a connection would be made.
All of us here are making asmption and fallicies or what ever tok staff.

Wow.. sorry partner, but based on the lore released by ANet, there is not an accurate piece of information in that at all.

Chthon · Dec 24, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

good input Chthon, you made me think of another issue.
All 5 true gods (and Abaddon) are said to be siblings of each other with Balthazar being the oldest. And Cynn says Abaddon is a filler god like Kormir. So does this make all the gods filler gods?
Maybe all of them were human at one point and they were the first humans to discover magic, thus making them gods....

That would be consistent with the Swedenborgian/Theosophian aspects present in the GW lore.

Gmr Leon · Dec 24, 2009, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Chthon, nice to see you back! (I just rediscovered your old argument with Ranger Nietzsche and Quintus on the validity of certain areas of the Manuscripts, so this is an excellent coincidence.)

I'm going to finish reading over this thread, but I assume whatever Chthon has said is more or less in line with what I would have said. If not, I'll elaborate on my own perspective, but for the moment, take his (her?) word on it, as I'm doing multiple things at once. Ewolxnavi is also hitting the nail on the head on information accuracy.

Chthon · Dec 24, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmr Leon

Chthon, nice to see you back! (I just rediscovered your old argument with Ranger Nietzsche and Quintus on the validity of certain areas of the Manuscripts, so this is an excellent coincidence.)

Yes, it's very much the same thing over again. My position hasn't changed much. I just have a lot more evidence given NF and Dhuum happened since then. Anywho, I've tried to stay out of the lore forum more or less since my thinking apparently upsets some people enough to actually call me "dangerous."

Gmr Leon · Dec 24, 2009, 03:49 AM // 03:49

If you'll notice though, there's a been a slight shifting of ideas, and people in charge, since then, so it's more open to your "radical" views.

Also, question, I'm not finding the quotes from Eve or Cynn in regards to Abaddon's position on the wiki, so would either of you happen to have those at hand?

Edit: Patrisha MacFarlane can also be taken for her (his?) word on this, although there are some points I'd be willing to contend, I agree with her (his?) overall point. Nevertheless, I'm going to finish eating before I completely respond, haven't eaten a complete meal all day.

So..In terms of accuracy, I've noted the fellows to look to here, if any of you were unwilling to take them for their word.

RedDog91 · Dec 24, 2009, 05:21 AM // 05:21

you make good points and i'll have to look into it more
except i did have a problem with this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrisha MacFarlane

Assuming that the UW must have been empty before Tyria was created or couldn't have existed before then seems rather silly, unless you are claiming that life only exists on Tyria and nowhere else in the Universe.

Tyria was the first world. So no, there was no life. Either the UW really was just an empty void of nothingness or it didn't exist until there was a need for it to.